#jiang cheng just wants to be accepted

[soph-skies]

mianmian, who never had a positive relationship with wwx, PUBLICLY LEAVING HER CLAN because they refused to acknowledge that they are the villains for torturing innocent people and that wwx was only defending those same people and is not a murderous madman. finally someone with principles they actually believe in enough to do something about it!!!

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

I'm a doctor, not a miracle worker.

[First] Prev <–-> Next

[endless-nightshift]

Not a Stan not an Anti but a secret third thing (interacting with what's interesting to me regardless of my personal opinion on a character and ignoring what's not)

[amorremanet]

.

Happy Monday, this Barbie is seething in her corner because her fellow westerners insist on being ignorant jackasses about going “wAaAaAH, BuUuUuUuT iT’S iIiIiIiNcEsT!!!!1” with regard to Chengxian/Xiancheng, a ship that:

1. literally is not, by any definition, incest;

2. hugely affects the plot of its story in several ways that are directly related to it NOT being incest;

and 3. has several explanations about why it IS *NOT* incest out there, across multiple platforms, written by fans who actually know Chinese, don’t have to engage with the text exclusively in translation, and have a much stronger understanding of the cultural normas and nuances at play in this relationship than us westerners, who can read and learn and try to do better about checking ourselves while engaging with CN texts, but will likely always be, to some extent, projecting western ideas onto them

but………y’know, sure, whatever. If it makes you happy to completely flatten a deeply complex and nuanced relationship into “everything about them is Normal Sibling Behavior and that’s literally all it will ever be,” despite both CN fans explaining why that’s wrong and the text itself offering multiple examples to the contrary, then hey, be my guest (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

[clownxian]

Wei Wuxian thinks that if he keeps running from his trauma that eventually he'll be happy.

(It doesn't work)

No, 'cuz like for real–

Genuinely speaking.

Is Wei Wuxian really happy post-canon? When people say, "Oh, he has a new life in Gusu," I immediately get a feeling of discomfort. Because that- those two things don't belong in the same sentence.

You mean to tell me Wei "even when I'm dreaming, I want to return to Lotus Pier" Wuxian found happiness in the most stifling clan known to man?

Debatable.

[dephoraowo]

Wei Wuxian and a List of his Fanon Tropes

Wei Wuxian is one of the best characters in mdzs. He is, unfortunately, also one of the most misunderstood characters in mdzs. I will be compiling all of his fanon tropes so that readers will be able to differentiate the canon from fanon.

List of Fanon Tropes:

Wei Wuxian is stupid / lazy / annoying / rude / incompetent. (+ this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian is a reckless or sacrificial idiot. (+ this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian has low self-esteem. (+ this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian is arrogant. (+ this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian has depression. (+ this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian is bisexual.

Wei Wuxian is suicidal. (+ this.)

Wei Wuxian is morally grey. (+ this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian owes the Jiangs. (+ this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian did the Golden Core Transfer purely out of love.

Wei Wuxian was favoured by Jiang Fengmian. (+ this, this.)

Wei Wuxian doesn't know how to take care of himself.

Wei Wuxian is oblivious. (+ this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian was adopted into the Jiang family. (+ this.)

Wei Wuxian harms the dead. (+ this.)

Wei Wuxian was not mistreated by the Jiangs. (+ this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian did not help the Jiang Clan after the war.

Wei Wuxian is an alcoholic.

Wei Wuxian regrets what he did to save the Wens.

Wei Wuxian is always thinking about Lotus Pier.

Wei Wuxian wants to reunite with Jiang Cheng during his second life. (+ this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian is physically weak without his golden core.

Wei Wuxian tortured every single Wen in the Supervisory Office.

Wei Wuxian refuses to accept help from everyone around him. (+ this, this.)

Wei Wuxian thinks Lan Wangji hates him. (+ this.)

Wei Wuxian views the Jiangs through rose colored lenses.

Wei Wuxian never told anyone that he was thrown into the Burial Mounds.

Wei Wuxian is a people pleaser. (+ this.)

Wei Wuxian is seen as an equal / respected by Jiang Cheng.

Wei Wuxian is privileged.

Wei Wuxian's cultivation is demonic cultivation. (+ this, this, this.)

Wei Wuxian is ashamed of his cultivation.

Wei Wuxian's memory is bad.

Wei Wuxian has a hero complex.

Disclaimer, none of these posts belong to me. I suggest reading all of the wonderful posts of the users that I have listed down because they are quite good to read. I'm just listing down all the fanon tropes, pet-peeves, misconceptions, gripes, or horrible takes out there in the fandom in mdzs for my own reference and perhaps everyone out there who needs it.

If there are any more things that I have missed, please don't hesitate to share 😊🙏. I have unfortunately reached the limit for this post and will have to add to a separate post if there are more fanon takes.

[mxtxfanatic]

Bing-ge and Victim's Entitlement as Portrayed by MXTX

I was thinking about Bing-ge’s journey as an abuse victim into an abuser and how much the creation of Bing-mei is a critique on both the writing trope that creates Bing-ge as well as the societal expectations that drive it.

In the world of PIDW, one of Shen Yuan’s main critiques was about how terribly the young Luo Binghe is treated by the narrative, so much so that he views it as torture porn. From being abandoned as a baby, to being abused as a servant and watching his adoptive mother wither from sickness and die, to finding his way to Cang Qiong Mountain and suffering under a cruel shizun who then pushes him into hell, Shen Yuan finds all this unnecessarily cruel. However, Shang Qinghua knows that the trauma Luo Binghe suffers directly correlates to the enjoyment readers are meant to get out of the second half of the protagonist’s life when he becomes overpowered and primed for vengeance. Shen Yuan knows this, too, as this is the trope he girds himself with as Shen Qingqiu to work up the nerve to push his disciple into the Endless Abyss, to “earn” his happiness. However, is this a true happiness? Does the trauma justify any and all of Luo Binghe’s actions?

On the surface, Bing-ge seems happy! He is able to enact revenge on Shen Jiu—and demolish Cang Qiong Mountain Sect who acted as accomplices to his abuse—and was given narrative access to any and every woman of marriageable age who crossed his path. He is even able to destroy his world by merging the three realms with no consequences to himself. Bing-ge has seemingly reaped the twisted “reward” that having survived unconscionable abuse and abandonment from the time of his birth had sown for him, and PIDW readers were able to enjoy and defend Bing-ge’s later megalomaniacal actions directly because they had read through hundreds of pages of his ill-treatment beforehand. The worse Luo Binghe’s childhood was, the more they were willing to accept of his actions in adulthood. We see a similar thing take place in the SVSSS fandom: the reveal of Shen Jiu’s past as a child slave is used to justify his later abuse of his child disciples—children who had no hand in his trauma but who he has decided to bear the brunt of it, anyways. But Shen Jiu lived a very unfulfilling adulthood due to his unwarranted actions until his untimely death. Is Luo Binghe any different?

Enter Bing-mei: the revised protagonist who abandons revenge in pursuit of experiencing genuine affection from the only person who gave it unconditionally. No, Bing-mei doesn’t get all the girls or all the power. He does not become the emperor of all three realms and he is not an uncontested leader that all conscious beings bow to. In fact, he is very tame and controlled in comparison to his PIDW counterpart despite not having complete control of his sword that amplifies his negative emotions. But when Bing-ge slips into the world of SVSSS and discovers that, despite all of this, Bing-mei has an intact world, platonic relationships, and a shizun who loves him, he’s willing to throw it all away to experience that same life. Bing-ge is revealed to be the unhappy, unfulfilled one, because the one thing he wanted—genuine unconditional love—was the one thing that he cannot earn or forcibly take. No amount of audience hype can change the fact that Bing-ge must leave behind the happy Bingqiu couple to return to his destroyed world in his unsatisfying reality.

This isn’t just a theme in SVSSS, either; it’s present in all of MXTX’s works in how people—both characters and the irl fandom—react to antagonists and asshole characters who have experienced trauma. In mdzs: a female cultivator tries to say that Jin Ling endangering other cultivators should be forgiven “since he’s an orphan.” Jiang Cheng throws his parents’ and sister’s death around to justify being an unrepentant serial killer. Jin Guangyao cries about how much his father hates him compared to the legitimate Jin heirs that he murdered. In tgcf: Qi Rong escapes discipline at every turn because his mother had to escape with him from his abusive father, and Mu Qing’s transgressions against the marginalized are ignored because “he was poor, once.” All of these characters have their actions whitewashed both in their stories and by their fandoms at large because their defenders believe that their trauma excuses any of their subsequent behavior.

Yet, MXTX does not prescribe to this idea. Notice the pattern of how the above characters end their stories. Jiang Cheng tanks his reputation and loses the respect of his only living relative. Jin Guangyao and Qi Rong die. But Jin Ling experiences setback after setback until he adjusts his behavior, and Mu Qing had to earnestly apologize under harrowing circumstances to be forgiven. It is not characters who seek justice for being harmed who are punished in these novels but those who persevere in their entitlement to do whatever they want because they were once harmed, thereby eventually destroy any goodwill others, particularly their loved ones, had towards them. The characters who are able to contain their actions to aim only at those who wronged them or else honestly reflect on their sense of entitlement in order to change for the better become well-liked by their peers. And as for Bing-ge: his inability to change within the narrative of PIDW may have “earned” him all the material things his world could offer and the affections of an unseen audience, besides, but he misses out on true human connection and love. These are the things he can never forcibly take, because in real life, no amount of trauma would entitle him—or anyone—to those things.

[khattikeri]

one of my favorite things about mdzs is that for how heavily its plot involves politics of classism and misogyny... even the characters most directly impacted by it can't and don't free themselves from it. literally the closest exception is mianmian.

meng yao being the "son of a whore" wasn't some sort of commie awakening for him that led him to wanting everyone to be socially equal. he played the political game, climbed the ladders, sucked up to and backstabbed and murdered people, including other prostitutes who actually had nothing to do with how he and his mother were treated at the brothel he grew up in.

he put in so much extra excessive effort for even a fraction of the same respect that members of gentry cultivation clans got. and he did deserve to be treated more humanely! but he feeds into the exact same system that created him, leading to his own undoing.

his efforts were for a fragile upward mobility that was never going to hold up. he never surpassed his origins nor did he empower others in similar stations, because the society he lives in is not one that would accept that.

the second he got caught and all those crimes exposed, he was scapegoated to hell and back, replacing wei wuxian as society's terrible one-sidedly evil boogeyman overnight.

speaking of not-quite male gentry, i think it's interesting that wei wuxian explicitly doesn't try to climb the ladders in BOTH lives, knowing full well that anything he does will be punished just for the sheer fact that he is wei wuxian.

wei wuxian is scolded for giving intelligent and correct answers in school. lan wangji does the same and is praised.

wei wuxian occasionally lounges around with fellow disciples and is punished. jiang cheng does the same and mostly escapes.

wei wuxian refuses to carry his sword around in public (after losing his golden core, which nobody knows) and is scorned as an arrogant upstart. nie huaisang has been doing the EXACT SAME THING for YEARS and nobody bats an eye.

unlike jin guangyao, wei wuxian knew subconsciously from the start that his acceptance was superficial and that he could be cast out any time. when he was 10 and recently taken in by the jiangs, he canonically would not eat or use "too much" food and water because he thought they'd find him a nuisance for "wasting their things" and kick him back out.

now away from just the classism, yu ziyuan is a proud and strong noblewoman in a society that belittles and derides women for everything they do. her strong cultivation doesn't matter. she's victim to the vicious rumors of her husband loving another woman who is strong like her but apparently had a more likeable personality.

it doesn't matter even if jiang fengmian didn't cheat or that wei wuxian is wei changze's son with cangse sanren; yu ziyuan can't bear with the humiliation of herself (and by extension her children) not being "good enough". she's ridiculed for "failing" in that one duty as a wife, mother, and woman.

she lashes out and takes out that anger on everyone present for years, giving her children lasting trauma and also being a key element in how the jiang family and yunmeng jiang sect are effectively wiped out at the hands of the wen clan.

madam jin doesn't even have a name outside of the fact that she's married to jin guangshan. i don't even remember reading anything that indicates if she's a strong or weak cultivator, or what, which in itself proves that to most people, it doesn't matter. she's "just" a woman.

of course she's angry at her husband's affairs and all the bastard children they bring in. but she also can't do anything about them, so she lashes out at the few people she can: servants. non-cultivators, probably. those very same bastard children.

shoutout to meng yao getting shoved down a flight of stairs at age fourteen, because if madam jin tried that move against her husband instead, it would make her lose even more face, which as a noblewoman she'd never do.

and that's not getting into how jiang yanli is consistently sidelined for being physically weak.

that's not getting into how mianmian was actually a good cultivator, but was mocked by everyone around her for trying to stand up for wei wuxian when everyone was turning on him. how everyone scoffed at luo qingyang's words as "just some lovesick woman" who "obviously wants to marry or bed him since he saved her".

luo qingyang is the only one of these characters who HASN'T died. she didn't play society's games like jin guangyao. she didn't dig her heels in confidence of her own abilities like wei wuxian.

she didn't bitterly lash out like yu ziyuan and madam jin. she didn't gently accept it like jiang yanli.

she just LEFT.

she married an ordinary merchant and cultivates separately from mainstream cultivation society, and therein found her own peace and happiness.

mxtx doesn't bother with particularly class conscious or feminist vocabulary to hand-hold readers into understanding these disparities, but that choice highlights them & the deeply entrenched politics of their society even more. i really love it.

[qiu-yan]

wei wuxian vs. pragmatism: what MDZS intends to say about righteousness

copy/pasting most of my rather bitchy reply into its own individual post because i think it deserves to stand on its own.

so i think we can all agree that MXTX intends for us to read MDZS and conclude that wei wuxian is ultimately a deeply heroic and righteous person. whether you as the reader agree with this assessment of wei wuxian's moral character is another question entirely, but at the very least it is fairly obvious to all of us that MXTX intends for us to read him as a good person.

so why does MXTX call wei wuxian a good person? what aspects of his character and which of his choices make him a good person? what moral framework and what definition of morality does MXTX employ in order to call wei wuxian a good person?

i posit that MXTX argues that wei wuxian is heroic precisely because he is not pragmatic - because he adheres to his moral ideals despite the consequences, and because he did not make moral sacrifices at critical junctures of his life. the first half of this post will argue that wei wuxian is not pragmatic. the second half of this post will argue that this is exactly why wei wuxian is heroic, and that the moral framework employed by MXTX is deeply idealistic instead.

so let's begin.

let's start by establishing two things.

first: what MXTX argues about morality through the narrative of MDZS and the reader's own beliefs about morality are two different things. me saying "MDZS argues that xyz is righteousness" and me saying "i think xyz is righteousness" are two different statements. the following analysis is concerned not with what i myself consider to be righteous, but rather what MXTX argues through MDZS is righteous.

second: wei wuxian is not pragmatic.

what does it mean to be pragmatic? unless we are speaking about the school of philosophy specifically (which i am not here), being pragmatic means being grounded in reality and focused on practical outcomes. it means being result-oriented and considering the consequences of your actions before you act; it means acting only after you have considered the potential consequences of all possible courses of action and have then decided which outcomes are acceptable. being pragmatic also means recognizing when achieving everything you want is impossible. and, in such situations, being pragmatic thus entails compromising to achieve a desired outcome, even if that means you don’t get everything they want. to put it in edgier terms, being pragmatic means being able to make moral sacrifices.

an idealistic person attempts the impossible. a pragmatic person recognizes when something truly is impossible.

wei wuxian is not pragmatic.

first, wei wuxian is not someone who carefully considers the consequences of his actions before he acts. in fact, he displays a startling lack of consideration for consequences. it repeatedly falls upon other characters to either try (and fail) to hold him back.

when wei wuxian punched jin zixuan for insulting first jiang yanli and then jiang cheng, did he consider that jiang fengmian and jin guangshan might then dissolve the betrothal, and that jiang yanli might have wanted to make a decision regarding that on her own? no. he just punched jin zixuan because he was mad that jin zixuan had insulted two people he loved.

when wen chao threatened mianmian, and lan wangji and jin zixuan stood up for mianmian, and then wei wuxian stood up for them by holding wen chao hostage in turn - did he consider that there might be consequences for humiliating and threatening the life of the son of a warmongering great sect leader who has already proven capable of attacking other sects? no. did he stop and think "alright, wen ruohan has already attacked the cloud recesses, which proves that he's willing to wage war against the other sects. threatening the son of a sect leader is an easy way to earn any sect leader's ire, and since i'm the first disciple of the jiang sect, this puts not just me but the entire jiang sect on wen ruohan's shitlist"? no. it would be one thing if wei wuxian weighed this possibility and then decided that rescuing an innocent girl and the people who defended her was more important was worth the risk - that would show that he considered the consequences and then made his choice. but the thought simply never entered his mind. he acted simply because he wanted to save mianmian, jin zixuan, and lan wangji from the wens; he did not think beyond that.

when wei wuxian busted the wen remnants out of the qiongqi pass labor camp, did he have a clear plan as to how he was going to weather the political fallout? did he have a plan more detailed than "live quietly in the burial mounds until everyone forgets about us"? no. when jiang cheng challenged him as to how he was going to survive the situation, he did not in fact offer anything more concrete than "we'll just wait for everyone else to forget about us." he blustered about being a once-in-a-generation genius who could accomplish the impossible, but he provided no actual plan as to how he was going to do it. this leads me to conclude that wei wuxian did not in fact have a long-term plan for handling the consequences when he went ham at the qiongqi pass camp - that, instead of weighing the consequences and then making his decision, he instead decided immediately that this was something he had to do, consequences be damned.

and then - on top of this - all of his following actions then point in the exact opposite direction of his stated plan of waiting for everyone to forget about them. because instead of doing anything to fade into the background, everything wei wuxian did instead just convinced the jianghu he was an intolerable threat.

and this was not a sustainable strategy.

one thing i really appreciate about MXTX is that she does not make the rest of the jianghu into one-dimensional villainous morons. it's quite easy for lazy writers who want a persecution plotline to have the rest of the story's society magically start hating on the protagonist for no good reason, to make every background character in the story's world a three-braincell moron. but MXTX is not that author. it speaks to MXTX's skill as an author that, from the perspective of the rest of the jianghu, fearing wei wuxian as a mortal threat was an entirely reasonable conclusion for them to come to.

first, the gentry's most recent direct interaction with wei wuxian during this time period is him threatening to kill all of them. when jin zixun doesn't give him the information he wants, wei wuxian straight up says: "if i want to kill everyone here, who can stop me? who dares stop me?" this is a threat! and - surprise - threatening to kill people naturally makes people think that you want to kill them! 

next, wei wuxian refined wen ning's dead body into the first sentient fierce corpse in history, and also the strongest fierce corpse in living memory - and then took wen ning with him on night-hunts. that's where the reputation of "the yiling patriarch and his ghost general" comes from. this very naturally made the rest of society fear him even more, because now the guy who has just recently threatened to kill you has demonstrated even more of the power to easily do so! the unparalleled power to do so, which no one else possesses and it would be very hard for anyone else to counter! add in the fact that wei wuxian's activities were also attracting prospective disciples - people gathering outside the burial mounds because they wanted to learn demonic cultivation - and naturally the public is even more frightened, because now it looks like the guy who threatened to kill all of you is also gathering the political force to do so!

the public is incorrect about wei wuxian's intentions, of course. but what does wei wuxian do to correct these misconceptions? to rehabilitate his public image, because now his public image has the life of not just himself but also all the wen remnants under his protection riding on it? to prove to the public that he isn't an active threat to their lives - that he does not seek to murder them all in their beds - that it is safe for them to allow him to live, and that they can in fact survive if they don't kill him?

nothing.

it would be one thing if the story mentioned how wei wuxian tried to correct the malicious rumors about himself and failed. but that is not what happened. what happened is that wei wuxian sat on his corpse mountain and let everyone else say what they wanted to say. and when he left his corpse mountain, it was to bring his one-of-a-kind unparalleled sentient fierce corpse with him on night-hunts, which of course just fanned the flames of the rumors instead. he doesn't even tell the prospective pupils camped on his front door to fuck off - he just sneaks in through the back door.

this is not pragmatic behavior. though you can argue that wei wuxian's strategy here was to become so powerful and so scary that no one would dare try to fight him, anyone with a brain can tell you that this is not a sustainable solution in the long-term. first, if you want to use threats to keep someone from attacking you, you also need to promise stability - you need to give people the reassurance that if they don't start shit with you, then you'll leave them alone too. if you drive the "threat" factor too high, as wei wuxian did, you instead end up convincing people that if they do nothing you'll kill them anyways - that they have no choice but to kill you if they want to survive.

second, if you want to use threats to keep someone from attacking you, you also need to prepare for the inevitability that, if someone does end up getting hurt, everyone will blame you first and no one will want to hear your side of the story. after all, if someone gets hurt, then the first suspect everyone looks towards will be the guy who's been consistently saying "i'm strong enough to hurt you! i'm strong enough to hurt you! don't start shit with me because i'm strong enough to end you!" for the past few months. this is basic common sense. and yes, the society of MDZS is unfair - wei wuxian deserved a proper trial and investigation after the death of jin zixuan. but the fact that society is unfair is something a pragmatic person would have recognized and planned for.

wei wuxian did not recognize and plan for this reality. even after he accidentally kills jin zixuan, wei wuxian still insists that if only the jianghu investigates jin zixun's hundred holes curse, they'll see that wei wuxian didn't cast the hundred holes curse, they'll see that there was more scheming going on, etc etc. wen qing has to directly spell out for him that, at this point, society no longer cares about the truth of the matter. it seems that wei wuxian was actually oddly idealistic about the true nature of his society all the way until the very end.

all of this leads me to conclude that, when wei wuxian busted the wen remnants out of the qiongqi pass labor camp, he did so without considering the consequences of his actions. he assumed that he could improvise and weasel his way out of this situation, as he's always done in the past with his typical genius - only this time, he was wrong.

wei wuxian acts without considering the consequences of his actions. he does not make a decision only after carefully deliberating over all of the potential outcomes - not at all. instead, he acts in the moment - not out of any rational consideration of potential outcomes, but rather because it is simply something he must do. this by definition makes him a deeply unpragmatic person.

to put it into more familiar terms, for wei wuxian, the righteousness of an action comes not from its consequences, but are rather inherent to the action itself. even if he were doomed to fail, he could not give up on the wen remnants.

second, at critical junctures, wei wuxian is unable to make moral sacrifices. to be pragmatic is to know when you have to sacrifice: to know when, in order to achieve the most inalienable of your goals, you have to give up on some of your other goals. this is something wei wuxian is consistently unable to do.

of course, when it comes to his own wellbeing, wei wuxian is all too willing to sacrifice. he'll carve out any number of his internal organs to save those he loves. but this honestly speaks less to wei wuxian's moral framework and more to his lack of self-worth from a troubled upbringing.

because, when it comes to any moral cause, wei wuxian is entirely unable to sacrifice anything, even if being unable to sacrifice entails more negative consequences. wei wuxian could not sacrifice mianmian, jin zixuan, and lan wangji to wen chao and his goons, so he took action and took wen chao hostage himself. to sit back and do nothing as wen chao threatened the lives of those three was simply unthinkable for him - even if it meant taking a course of action that put yunmeng jiang in danger.

wei wuxian's relationship with jiang cheng deteriorated because jiang cheng did not know about the golden core transfer: because jiang cheng did not know that wei wuxian could no longer cultivate, from jiang cheng's point of view, it looked like wei wuxian was just refusing to help out and fulfill his promises for kicks. wei wuxian could have made things a lot easier for himself and also any wen remnants he chose to rescue had he simply told jiang cheng the truth - but he knew that finding out the truth of the golden core transfer would make jiang cheng miserable, and [jiang cheng's happiness] was not something he was willing to sacrifice.

wei wuxian's single most prominent moral decision is his refusal to allow the wen remnants to be sacrificed. anyone with a shred of political sense had to know that rescuing the wen remnants and then protecting them would be near impossible - that it entails making an enemy of the jin, and due to the jins' power, the entire jianghu. wei wuxian himself knew this; he is no moron. wei wuxian also had no long-term plan, no allies, and significantly less power than the rest of the world believed. yet, despite this all, he acted anyways, because he could not let the wen remnants be sacrificed.

the wen remnants wei wuxian rescued from the qiongqi pass labor camp included both regular civilians and cultivators. perhaps wei wuxian could have negotiated a proper release for the non-cultivating civilians, such as granny wen and a-yuan, had he chosen to give up on the cultivators. but - the question of whether this would have worked or not aside - this was not a sacrifice wei wuxian would be willing to make.

nor could wei wuxian sacrifice the safety of yunmeng jiang. i am firmly of the belief that, had yunmeng jiang formally stood by wei wuxian's side after wei wuxian attacked the jin-run labor camp, lanling jin would have eventually declared war on yunmeng jiang, and yunmeng jiang's would inevitably be destroyed. both wei wuxian and jiang cheng understood this as well - which is why wei wuxian told jiang cheng to let him go.

(you can argue - successfully - that wei wuxian did in fact sacrifice [his obligations to yunmeng jiang and his promise to jiang cheng] by leaving yunmeng jiang to protect the wen remnants. this is true. but i think that - from wei wuxian's point of view - this was not much of a sacrifice, because due to wei wuxian lacking a golden core, he already viewed himself as mostly useless to yunmeng jiang. so him leaving - in his view - is not really that much of a loss for yunmeng jiang.)

wei wuxian promised wen qing that he would return wen ning's consciousness to his corpse. when wei wuxian made this promise, he had no idea if he could actually pull it off or not. but then he did - and, in the process, created the most dangerous weapon the jianghu had seen in living memory. wen ning specifically, or moreso wei wuxian's inability to control him, leads to so much of wei wuxian's eventual downfall: wei wuxian loses control of wen ning and accidentally kills jin zixuan; when wen ning goes to turn himself in at jinlintai, he ends up going berserk again and killing another 10-20 jin and lan cultivators, which leads to the nightless city pledge conference. frankly, wei wuxian could have avoided a lot of trouble - or at the very least, a lot of the public's fear - had he not raised wen ning from the dead. it's not like he'd be completely defenseless without wen ning, either. but wei wuxian promised wen qing he would resurrect wen ning - and he could not sacrifice his promise to wen qing because of what wen qing had already done for him.

a pragmatic person is able to make sacrifices, including moral ones. at the very least, a pragmatic person recognizes when sacrifice is inevitable, when all paths lead to something being lost. a pragmatic person, put in the trolley problem, would recognize that there were only two options and that both options involve sacrifice: either he must kill one person, or he must allow five people to die. there is no path forwards in which all six people live.

wei wuxian is unable to make moral sacrifices. he clings on to all of these moral causes, all of these promises and obligations, and it is precisely because he attempts to hold onto all of them that he ends up losing everything. to reuse the previous example, wei wuxian in the trolley problem tried to save all six people because he could not accept any of the sacrifices made inevitable by the trolley problem.

to put this all together - wei wuxian is not a pragmatic person. he makes decisions with his gut, not his head - he does not consider the consequences of his actions before he acts. nor is wei wuxian able to make sacrifices - even necessary ones in order to avoid greater tragedies.

but. none of this means that wei wuxian is not a deeply heroic person. rather, to do what you believe to be righteous and attempt to live up to your ideals despite the consequences is exactly what MXTX lauds as moral. and to be unable to make a moral sacrifice when everyone else in your society easily does so is in fact deeply heroic.

it is precisely because wei wuxian is not pragmatic that MXTX declares him a hero.

some people, including myself, favor a moral framework that centers pragmatism and reason as virtues. to us, the ideal moral character is someone who makes decisions based on reason and not emotion, who considers the potential consequences of every course of action before making a decision, and who then, based on these inferred future consequences, uses reason to deduce which of all of the possible outcomes is the most preferable.

but this does not in fact describe wei wuxian, nor is this how wei wuxian views ethics. and to be honest, i don't think this is how MXTX views ethics either.

in all three of her stories, MXTX repeatedly comes down harder on the characters who make pragmatic decisions, the characters who are willing to sacrifice. in fact, killing sunshot soldiers while acting as wen ruohan's spy, and then killing nie mingjue's men in order to ensure a chance at killing wen ruohan and saving nie mingjue, was the pragmatic thing for meng yao to do, because that was the least bloody path forwards towards a sunshot victory over qishan wen. in fact, cutting ties with wei wuxian after he attacked the jin-run qiongqi pass labor camp was the pragmatic thing for jiang cheng to do, because it was the only path forward that did not put yunmeng jiang, his first and foremost responsibility, in the line of fire. and yet (though the situation is less clear with jin guangyao), MDZS as a narrative criticizes both jin guangyao and jiang cheng for these decisions - because, to MDZS, righteousness does not lie in pragmatism.

(this is a statement i personally disagree with. but we are here to discuss what MDZS wants to say about pragmatism and righteousness, not what i want to say about pragmatism and righteousness.)

by contrast, the one single act for which deeply controversial jiang cheng is ultimately lauded for in the narrative is also his single least pragmatic, most emotional act. the one single act of jiang cheng's that MDZS does not criticize is when, after the fall of lotus pier, jiang cheng ran out from his hiding spot to distract the wen soldiers from seeing wei wuxian. from a filial, duty-based point of view, this was a deeply stupid and unpragmatic course of action: jiang cheng's first and foremost duty, as the sole surviving jiang and new sect leader jiang, was to survive, rebuild his sect, and avenge his parents. from a consequentialist point of view, this impulsive choice is also what led to the domino-fall of tragedy that followed, since jiang cheng then got captured and had his golden core melted, which then led to everything else. yet this stupid, unpragmatic, and impulsive decision is ultimately the one act MDZS considers to be jiang cheng's single most heroic.

the key as to what MDZS considers to be heroic, what it considers to be righteous, lies in the jiang family motto: 明知不可而为之, attempt the impossible. this line, taken from the analects of confucius, can be considered to be a deeply deontological ideal. i find this twitter thread (warning to my followers: does kind of dunk on JC) to be rather helpful in elucidating this line's meaning. 

to attempt the impossible, to try what shouldn't be tried. "ask yourself not whether you can do it, but whether you should...consider not the result but rather the journey - have a clear conscience regardless of outcome." in other words, what matters is less whether you succeeded or failed, or what sort of outcome your actions brought about - what matters is that you tried. what matters is that, in the face of overwhelming odds, you tried to do what you think is right. and even if you end up failing - even if everyone you sought to protect ended up dying - the fact that you tried still has moral weight.

this is why it was righteous of wei wuxian to save the wen remnants - even though the ultimate consequences of that decision were overall negative, even though everyone wei wuxian tried to protect died. in fact, if wei wuxian had died immediately - if he had been shot down by jin archers at the qiongqi pass labor camp the moment he came within their range - if he had died before any wen in the labor camp realized someone wanted to save him - he would still be a righteous person. because, for MDZS, what makes an action righteous is not its consequences. for MDZS, what makes a person righteous is not what impact their actions have on the world, but rather that they have the sort of moral character that leads them to never give up on their ideals.

wei wuxian does not consider the consequences of his actions before he acts. or, should i say - wei wuxian makes decisions despite their consequences, because despite the consequences there are simply some moral causes he simply cannot give up on. wei wuxian did not save the wen remnants because it was pragmatic to do so. it was in fact deeply unpragmatic to do so. no - wei wuxian saved the wen remnants without a concrete long-term plan, without having thought through anything beforehand, with the knowledge of how weak he was in reality - because he could not give up on the wen remnants, consequences be damned.

to have some moral causes you simply cannot give up on, no matter the consequences - to MXTX, is deeply heroic. in this sense, MXTX's moral philosophy is not pragmatic at all, because to be pragmatic is to be concerned with practical consequences. instead, both wei wuxian and MXTX herself are deeply idealistic, because what matters to them are ideals and principles that extend beyond consequence.

as the linked twitter thread notes, this is why MXTX waits until the very end of the book to reveal that wen yuan, now lan sizhui, lived. this is why wangxian only meet mianmian and her family at the end of the book. this is why all of the cumulative positive impacts of wei wuxian's resurrection -  jin ling forgiving wei wuxian, jin guangyao, and wen ning, for one - are kept to the end of the story: because MDZS needs to move away from the consequentialist argument. MDZS needs to establish that wei wuxian's righteousness is separate from the impact of his actions: that wei wuxian isn't righteous merely because his actions had a positive impact for which others can thank him, but rather because the actions he undertook were inherently righteous on their own. that even if none of these positive impacts existed - if wen yuan had also died, if mianmian hadn't made it - then wei wuxian's choices would still be moral.

this is also why MDZS ultimately comes down harder on characters like jiang cheng and jin guangyao, even though a more results-oriented moral framework would instead laud such characters. both jiang cheng and jin guangyao are deeply pragmatic characters: they put concrete results before abstract moral ideals, and they're willing to compromise on their ideals in order to achieve better results. i am a JC stan and a jiggy apologist because of these exact traits. but MDZS is a narrative that criticizes such pragmatism and instead holds up wei wuxian's idealism as a moral ideal - so, in order to advance its themes, the MDZS narrative ends up criticizing both jiang cheng and jin guangyao.

ultimately, this idealism - this criticism of pragmatism - lies at the heart of MDZS's themes. wei wuxian's righteousness is directly connected to the fact that he is not pragmatic. the fact that wei wuxian makes moral decisions despite the consequences, and that he is unable to sacrifice any moral cause - is all part of what makes him at once deeply unpragmatic and deeply heroic.

---

you see, the funny thing here is that i personally disagree with this theme. as i've said before, i'm a utilitarian. to me, the morality of an action does in fact arise from its consequences; to me, someone who compromises on their ideals to achieve better results is preferable to someone who adheres to all of their ideals and then loses everything. the character i consider to have had the greatest positive impact on this story's world is jin guangyao. the character i consider to have most dutifully fulfilled his obligations is jiang cheng.

therefore, i disagree with basically everything i wrote up there about "trying": i think that if you try to do the right thing, fail epically, and in the process of your failure get a bunch of other people killed as well, the fact that you failed this badly does in fact matter quite a bit. the bulk of my more haterish posts are born from this fundamental disagreement with what MDZS posits is righteousness.

however. as a reader i must recognize that [what i consider to be moral] and [what the author of this story considers to be moral] are two different things. my own moral philosophy may be heavily results-oriented, but MXTX's is much less so. therefore, regardless of what i think of wei wuxian, i conclude that MXTX ultimately intends for us to read wei wuxian as a heroic figure for the exact reasons i gave above - and that fact must then inform every analysis of MDZS i write.

[niobefurens]

Shixiong.

In MDZS shīxiōng (elder shì brother) is used exclusively for Wèi Wúxiàn (21 times); once, Wèi Wúxiàn is called called Dà-shīxiōng (first elder shì brother).

Wèi Wúxiàn is born on October 31st and Jiāng Chéng on November 5th; making Wèi Wúxiàn five days older.

Age alone, however, would not make Wei Wúxiàn automatically Jiāng Chéng’s shīxiōng.

Normally, in cultivation sects, the one who joined first, would be considered the eldest disciple.

In MDZS, instead of cultivation sects, we have cultivation families; the bloodlines.

Jiāng Chéng, being a Jiāng by blood, should, by rights, be considered member of his shì by default; and Wèi Wúxiàn would anyways be his shīdì.

In MDZS, Wèi Wúxiàn is usually called shīxiōng only by younger Jiāng-shīdì (who are younger than Jiāng Chéng as well, and thus would also refer to him as shīxiōng).

Jiāng Chéng never calls him shīxiōng.

Unless MXTX is using the word only as an age marker, this should mean the junior shīdì joined the Jiàng-shì after Wèi Wúxiàn did.

Which is possible.

In the scene when Wèi Wuxian runs away, Jiāng Yànlí says her brother is always home playing by himself; she blames that on his bad temper; but we see no juniors at all until the boys are fifteen; nor does Jiāng Yànlí have any shījiě or shīmèi that we know of.

We can think that, up until Wèi Wuxian's arrival, Lotus Pier didn't have any junior disciples.

After that, since he already had two to train, Jiāng Fēngmián accepted more of them.

By the time of the Indoctrination Conference, we know there are at least twenty juniors, since that is the number that go to Qishan.

The only other person to use this term for Wèi Wúxiàn is Jīn Guāngyáo.

This happens at the Guanyin Temple showdown, when Jīn Guāngyáo is talking visciously to Jiāng Chéng to annoy and distract him.

"Ever since we started, your eyes have been so shifty, almost like you’re scared of looking that way. Is anything over there ... Nothing is over there except for your shixiong."

Jin GuangYao, “Fine. Mr. Wei, you see? Your shidi didn’t come looking for you. He doesn’t even want to spare you a single glance.” Wei WuXian smiled, “Now those are strange words. It’s not the first day Sect Leader Jiang treats me like this. Do I need you to keep on reminding me?” Hearing this, Jiang Cheng’s lips twisted slightly. Veins popped from the back of the hand with which he held Zidian. Jin GuangYao turned to him again, sighing, “Sect Leader Jiang, look—it’s just so difficult being your shixiong, isn’t it?”

(CH. 101)

Is Jīn Guāngyáo here suggesting that somehow Wèi Wúxiàn joined the shì before Jiāng Chéng did?

In that case, he would be implying that Wèi Wúxiàn is really Jiāng Fēngmián’s son.

As far as I understand, in ancient China there is no concept of illegittimate children; only that of unrecognised ones (like Jīn Guāngyáo himself had been ).

As the eldest son of Jiāng Fēngmián, Wèi Wúxiàn should also have been Zōngzhǔ after him.

Imagine how annoying this bit of gossip cropping up again can be to Jiāng Chéng (and to Wèi Wúxiàn).

[shanastoryteller]

Blessed Samhain, Shana! more Lady Mo or something else genderbendy?

a continuation of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47

Lan Xichen hasn’t seen Wangji this upset in thirteen years and he has no idea what could be the cause. He guides him to A-Yao’s private garden, mind spinning. If Xuanyu were in some sort of immediate danger, Wangji would not leave her side. He’s sure of that and it’s all that’s keeping him from marching back to Jiang Yanli and demanding an explanation out of her himself. He hopes Sizhui hasn’t noticed the commotion, certain it will cause his nephew to worry, but he doesn’t spare too much thought on it because right now his first concern is his brother.

Worryingly, when they come to a stop Wangji just continues to stare at him blankly.

“What happened?” he asks, resisting the urge to grab him by his shoulders and shake him. “Did you and Xuanyu get into a disagreement?”

Perhaps something to do with Jin Guangshan? Lan Xichen has long abandoned the idea that she’s some sort of spy, as has A-Yao, but that doesn’t mean her father can’t want things from her, can’t be trying to make things difficult for her. Perhaps Jiang Yanli was warning her and Xuanyu and Wangji had a fight about it? They fight often enough that he can’t imagine anything that would send Wangji running.

“I’ve done something terrible,” Wangji says tonelessly. “This is my fault.”

Wangji faced down forty Lan clan elders and received forty lashings all without admitting a single moment of poor judgement or regret. Punishments he accepts easily – culpability, significantly less.

“What are you talking about?” he demands, trying to keep the alarm out of his voice. “What did you do?”

“Xuanyu,” he starts, then presses his lips together and shakes his head.

He would not harm Xuanyu. Even that spar that set half the clan to breaking the rules about gossip was not about harm. He’ll fight her, argue with her, spar with her, but Wangji worries and watches over Xuanyu constantly, vexed and surprised by her at turns, and Lan Xichen had felt aching relief when the woman his brother had been coerced to marry had turned out to be someone that Wangji couldn’t look away from.

He forces himself to sound calm. “What about Xuanyu?”

Wangji wets his lips and has to clear his throat twice before he can make himself speak. “She’s pregnant.”

Lan Xichen stares.

The relief is enough to make his knees week and his grip on Wangji’s shoulder doubles as a way to steady himself. “Wangji! You nearly gave me a heart attack! This is wonderful-”

“Wonderful?” he repeats, looking at him like he’s grown another head.

Some of that relief drains away. “Is it not? Is something wrong with the baby? Or Xuanyu? I know she was a little weak when you married, but she’s gotten so much stronger.” A terrible thought occurs to him. “Is she – she’s happy about it, isn’t she? She said that she likes kids and she’s so good with Sizhui, she must be happy.”

“I,” Wangji blinks, “I don’t – I didn’t ask–”

“Well, what did you say?” he asks in exasperation.

“I apologized.”

A-Yao isn’t here, but Lan Xichen feels the familiar urge to turn to him. “You apologized.” Wangji nods. “Xuanyu told you that she was carrying your child. And you apologized. Then left.”

He nods again, slower this time.

Lan Xichen grips the bridge of his nose.

“LAN WANGJI!”

They both turn to see Jiang Cheng headed straight for them, sword unsheathed and Zidian sparking, although that’s not the most alarming part. The last time Lan Xichen saw that look on Jiang Cheng’s face, they were on a battlefield.

This, at least, likely is Wangji’s fault.

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

The fascination to make the likes of Shen Jiu, Jiang Cheng, and Mu Qing everything they aren't while claiming to understand everything about their character will forever amaze me. No, you don't actually understand them as they are, especially because what's wanted is your own sense of redemption and what they deserve as way of a reward for their realizations.

Yet their acceptance of their horrid behaviors is their redemption. The bare minimum of acknowledging the cruelty they inflicted and put on to others as well is it. You do not get rewarded, nor should expect to be, for that realization that you have deliberately let others be hurt because of your own jealousy and hate. Realizing is just one part of betterment. The only one that does actively try to make amends and shows some sort of understanding to maintain an actual semblance of friendship that is now with boundaries and understanding of expectations from that, is Mu Qing. He is the only one that reaches out with his apologies to say he wants Xie Lian as a friend despite his jealousy and behavior of the past.

Shen Jiu and Jiang Cheng have no such regrets since their cynicism and self-absorption stays the principal feeling of their regrets. It is not for the sympathy and regret for what others did for them that they're upset, it's the way they know they have no right to disregard the selflessness that Wei Wuxian and Yue Qingyuan showed for them. The reality of having squandered and belittled that because of their own hate, self grandeur, and egoism convinced them it was appropriate and reasonable. Only one amongst these three did have the maturity to admit and willingly want to place the effort into maintaining the friendship he still wanted when saying he was actively wrong and jealous of who Xie Lian was. Shen Jiu still was forever bitter about Yue Qingyuan while also not wanting to think that perhaps Yue Qingyuan was suffering as well. Jiang Cheng still spoke in terms of debts and repayment as if Wei Wuxian was settling to buy off his own life to freedom. They did not want to actively change because they didn't see anything wrong in their own selves.

That is where at least Mu Qing has the opening to do and be better, to be a friend finally to Xie Lian. Redemption isn't meant to be satisfying for anyone but the one who seeks it in their own way. Sometimes it's also disappointing as an outside party that they don't want to change for the better with that realization of identity and still are hateful to the core.

[fixielixie]

in wei wuxians second life, after everything he’s been through and all of the preconceived ideas he had about what lan wangji thought of him, he notes the change of how lan wangji treats him and is so quick to completely let go of that lingering resentment/confusion and trust fully that lan wangji truly does respect him, has his best intentions in mind, cares for him.

he doesn’t ever question lan wangjis motives, or wonder if he’s worthy of lan wangjis esteem. he’s confused at first, but only because he doesn’t understand it when faced with the reality of everyone else in the world hating him so much more now (cough jiang cheng) but once it’s revealed that lwj knew who wwx was the entire time, wwx processes that and is like okay chill love that for us.

like i really don’t understand how people characterise wei wuxian as someone who is oblivious or has low self esteem. he’s critical of decisions he’s made in the past, sure. but he never questions his own worth, when lwj made it clear that he wanted to be around wwx, even at the risk of his own reputation, wwx wasn’t horrified at the idea of someone as amazing and The lan wangji dirtying his hands by associating himself with worthless little wwx. he is touched, a bit shocked but he accepts it and doesn’t try to fight lwj on his decision.

ugh i just think wwx is such a great character 😭

[halenhusky309]

We are not going to do the "MXTX only wrote morally grey characters in her novel" nonsense in 2025, just because you wanted your fave side characters look less horrible by bringing down the main characters to their levels...

You can't force me to accept Wei Wuxian fighting against a bunch of Cultivators to protect Wens Renmants from needless cruel share the same moral stance as Jiang Cheng going along with Cultivation World to masacre Wens Renmants under the name of collective punishment.

[lavender-phoenix-flames]

I think it is quite funny jc stans and their relentless tries in making jiang cheng good and likeable or going extreme lengths to prove "look wwx is bad too so it's all equal haha"

At the end of the day the text disproves everything they made up, they can blissfully accept and argue their deluded fanon to be true but it never will be. And I sleep well at night knowing that mxtx made him a loser miserable asshole and I had enough reading comprehension to know that.

Also I know jc stans seethe at the fact wwx is the ideal protagonist that he is cuz when you compare jc to wwx you truly see how big of loser jc is, how much lacking he is in comparison. Wwx is so abundant in positive traits, he is literally so good at everything except cooking and then there's jc who barely has any good traits. Their tries to paint wwx as morally grey make them look like absolute idiots cuz the narrative and the author disproves the claim. "Oh but I don't agree with the author" well your approval doesn't matter cuz in mdzs universe wwx's actions are justified and jc's aren't, also most of jc's actions are presented in a negative light anyways.

They try and make him less of a loser making stuff up like "best jiujiu" "best sect leader" "oh look jc knew/predicted everything abt wwx" "wwx is reckless and impulsive and jc is so level headed" and none of these mentioned claims are true and even when author says he is despised by women cuz of his rancid personality they are like "no she is joking ofc ofc" or "he is actually aroace" and don't even let me get started on how they want to pair him up with lan xichen or nie huaisang when in text neither of them cares about him and the fact jc himself is a homophobe and they do it just cuz they want him to not die alone pfft.

Jc stans so delusional, I bet mxtx finds them so funny, I mean how can someone be so bad at reading lol

[mifeng-xiaojie]

This is the last I’ll say about the “canon Jiang Cheng” wankery.

It has been a spoken and agreed upon rule of Tumblr fandom before there was a Jiang Cheng to love or hate that you DO NOT put your hate in the character and ship tags and that you do tag it with “anti-character name”. The reason is because fans utilize those tags to find and share art, fiction, and discussions about their favorite characters. The tags have always been meant to be a space to bring people together positively.

It’s long been understood that anyone who puts hate in the tag either doesn’t know any better or they just want to start shit. I’m late to the fandom, but my impression of the JC antis and this whole tag mess is that you all just want to start shit and be miserable because honestly, the majority of you all contribute more hate and negativity to fandom than you do anything else. You talk about JC fans being delusional. Ok, and? Even if they are, they’re having fun! They’re making friends with each other and bonding over their love for this character, which is how fandom is supposed to be. You’re worried about this so called delusion because why again?

Ya’ll knew that naming the tag “canon” would be contentious. Different people have different interpretations of canon, but rather than accept that in good faith, you’d rather accuse people of lying, making things up, and being delusional. Do you feel better doing that?

It’s a fictional story we’re all supposed to be having fun with. Yall make shit not fun. I hesitated for a long time to even engage with this fandom because of the amount of hate and vitriol I see antis spewing on a day to day basis. I just recently watched as antis on that confession blog appeared to have gotten their face chewed off enough by JC stans so then they tried it with the JGY stans and proceeded to get steamed rolled again. Yall do this shit to yourselves and cry victim. Stop it. Get some help. Get jobs. Mow the lawn. Do something productive. This ain’t it.